dilbert_cal
03-20 02:36 AM
Moral of this thread :-
All Desi Consulting companies are Fraud
which in turn implies
All Desis are Fraud. <---- Nope , Will Not say that because it includes Me :-)
alright, let me try again
All Consulting companies are Fraud <--- But hey there are so many which are not Fraud
Hmmmm, Confused. Alright, Did I hear there are exceptions. No, my dear. We got it the wrong way here. Fact is
Some Consulting Companies Do Subvert the Law and/or take Advantage of folks on H1. *
One or more of them are owned by Indians. ( commonly called desi by Indians )
One or more of them are not owned by Indians.
Where does the More End ? A small percentage, a big chunk, average ??? There is no study which has been done on the same. We all see it in the perception we hold. And when it comes to negativity, we tend to exaggerate. ( Or maybe we dont and I've a wrong perception )
* Non-consulting companies also do take advantage of H1b folks if possible - dont think I've to give examples of the same.
I dont work for a desi company. But I've quite a few friends who work for Desi firms - most of them are happy and have been treated nice and fair. A small number had issues. This is my experience. Certainly not something which makes me identify with the rest of the sentiments.
As per Logiclife, unpaid period on bench is a certainty. No my dear. Thats an exaggeration.
How many of us..................
Well, I thought of writing more but who am I telling this to and why ?
Rants over - time to get back to my life. I've got something else to finish which I know will bring me more flames but possibly help this organization too and that matters more. Flame me as much as you want to for being the odd man out in the thread ( there are others too - not that I'm the only one ) but possibly I wont even come back to this thread to read the flames :-)
All Desi Consulting companies are Fraud
which in turn implies
All Desis are Fraud. <---- Nope , Will Not say that because it includes Me :-)
alright, let me try again
All Consulting companies are Fraud <--- But hey there are so many which are not Fraud
Hmmmm, Confused. Alright, Did I hear there are exceptions. No, my dear. We got it the wrong way here. Fact is
Some Consulting Companies Do Subvert the Law and/or take Advantage of folks on H1. *
One or more of them are owned by Indians. ( commonly called desi by Indians )
One or more of them are not owned by Indians.
Where does the More End ? A small percentage, a big chunk, average ??? There is no study which has been done on the same. We all see it in the perception we hold. And when it comes to negativity, we tend to exaggerate. ( Or maybe we dont and I've a wrong perception )
* Non-consulting companies also do take advantage of H1b folks if possible - dont think I've to give examples of the same.
I dont work for a desi company. But I've quite a few friends who work for Desi firms - most of them are happy and have been treated nice and fair. A small number had issues. This is my experience. Certainly not something which makes me identify with the rest of the sentiments.
As per Logiclife, unpaid period on bench is a certainty. No my dear. Thats an exaggeration.
How many of us..................
Well, I thought of writing more but who am I telling this to and why ?
Rants over - time to get back to my life. I've got something else to finish which I know will bring me more flames but possibly help this organization too and that matters more. Flame me as much as you want to for being the odd man out in the thread ( there are others too - not that I'm the only one ) but possibly I wont even come back to this thread to read the flames :-)
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chanduv23
07-01 11:58 AM
fyi
http://judiciary.house.gov/media/pdfs/Oppenheim070606.pdf
Testimony of Charles Oppenheim, Chief, Immigrant Control and Reporting Division, Visa Services Office, U.S. Department of State, June 6, 2007.
Any indepth on what is the bigger picture here? Something is happening in the background on the immigration side.
Looks like lot of politics and blame game among agencies.
I think immigration lawyers or AILA etc.. may also not have any say here though they all put up on their website that we will file lawsuit etc.....
http://judiciary.house.gov/media/pdfs/Oppenheim070606.pdf
Testimony of Charles Oppenheim, Chief, Immigrant Control and Reporting Division, Visa Services Office, U.S. Department of State, June 6, 2007.
Any indepth on what is the bigger picture here? Something is happening in the background on the immigration side.
Looks like lot of politics and blame game among agencies.
I think immigration lawyers or AILA etc.. may also not have any say here though they all put up on their website that we will file lawsuit etc.....
Madhuri
04-02 03:41 PM
You are absolutely right about rippling effect. I personally know someone, yet to graduate, yet to get OPT also, but got trained in ETL/Datawarehousing before graduation, got a job thr' desi shop as a H1 consultant with 6 years experience. I was really shocked to see the level to which people can lie. I am sure their lies won't stand in critical work situations when REAL exp. is warrented. But the damage is already done.
[QUOTE=imv116]
Nothing wrong, but just the fact that hiring becomes difficult and and people with genuine experience will also have to go through stringent hiring procedures. Say someone really has 8 years experience and someone is faking 8 years experience, both are competing for the same job and as a hiring manager, if the job is filled with someone with fake exp and this person does not perform, it will have a rippling effect. I have seen this happen.
[QUOTE=imv116]
Nothing wrong, but just the fact that hiring becomes difficult and and people with genuine experience will also have to go through stringent hiring procedures. Say someone really has 8 years experience and someone is faking 8 years experience, both are competing for the same job and as a hiring manager, if the job is filled with someone with fake exp and this person does not perform, it will have a rippling effect. I have seen this happen.
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gbof
01-17 11:02 AM
I read your story (every line and every word) and portray my self in that but few small changes.
Very recently even I have learn't that GC is important, but not that important than your life, kids, parents,...
but I would certainly pray for you to get a job ASAP. I know the pain.
Read the post well before concluding and offer prayers
Very recently even I have learn't that GC is important, but not that important than your life, kids, parents,...
but I would certainly pray for you to get a job ASAP. I know the pain.
Read the post well before concluding and offer prayers
more...
chanduv23
09-28 02:36 PM
It's true that Europe can be a tough place, as can Canada or the U.S. to a newcomer. What is true about Europe is that it is a socialist place, salaries are lower, taxes are higher, racism is stronger, houses are smaller, yet you are also surrounded by beautiful places and there is a lot to do and see. It depends what type of person you are. Some Europeans hate Europe themselves and want to come to the U.S. as much or more than you did when you immigrated here. I'd say Europe is a good Plan B if all else fails here in America for you, and then you can always go back to India or China if you didn't like Europe.
Hopefully we don't need to get sucked in by the Reverse Brain Drain and we can help Congress help us, by changing the law, and retaining the high-skilled legal immigrants like us who are suffering and stuck in backlogs, and which is the only fair thing to do!
Jaime - you nailed it. People must concentrate on what they have to do. I started this thread for gettting a general perspective, because I seen articles about Blue Card and my dad also told me to look into it.
This thread has been very informative. Let folks keep blogging their prespectives
Hopefully we don't need to get sucked in by the Reverse Brain Drain and we can help Congress help us, by changing the law, and retaining the high-skilled legal immigrants like us who are suffering and stuck in backlogs, and which is the only fair thing to do!
Jaime - you nailed it. People must concentrate on what they have to do. I started this thread for gettting a general perspective, because I seen articles about Blue Card and my dad also told me to look into it.
This thread has been very informative. Let folks keep blogging their prespectives
weasley
11-12 05:17 PM
VIN13
Appreciate your effort. I will send these letters to my congressman and senator. I will ask my friends who are citizens also to do the same.
What else you want us to do?
Thanks.
Contact your congressman and use the draft to help get clarrification/resolution. If they cannot help resolve, but can get an appointment with a higher official then one of us can go meet them. Some of us are willing to fly/drive.. at our own expense to meet the official.
I know atleast 3 members including me who would be meeting lawmakers of our respective constituencies. When we meet the lawmakers we plan to discuss about our provisions in the CIR(Recapture, country cap,...) and then in the interim we would request them to help us resolve the quarterly spillover.
Appreciate your effort. I will send these letters to my congressman and senator. I will ask my friends who are citizens also to do the same.
What else you want us to do?
Thanks.
Contact your congressman and use the draft to help get clarrification/resolution. If they cannot help resolve, but can get an appointment with a higher official then one of us can go meet them. Some of us are willing to fly/drive.. at our own expense to meet the official.
I know atleast 3 members including me who would be meeting lawmakers of our respective constituencies. When we meet the lawmakers we plan to discuss about our provisions in the CIR(Recapture, country cap,...) and then in the interim we would request them to help us resolve the quarterly spillover.
more...
desi485
03-15 11:11 PM
I agree with you completely ! I wish and pray Interfilers and labor substitution applicants rot in hell.
You are a frustrated fool.
I have a friend who despite eligible for eb2, his employer filed in eb3 without his knowledge. He only came to know about this after 3 years after his labor got approved and got I-140 approved. The employer didn't provide him any papers for labor cert but somehow he got hold of his I-140 notice approval. He changed his job now and filed eb2 with new employer. I see no reason why he should not do interfile.
You are frustrated because of retrogression. Why don't you curse others, not those little less fortunate, from so called retrogressed countries? I have seen people in my organization coming from ROW countries and getting complete GC in less than 15 months. You should really get frustrated with country quota, not with your fellow sufferers.
think before you act like a fool. Say honestly that you never tried any legally available shortcut in your life.
You are a frustrated fool.
I have a friend who despite eligible for eb2, his employer filed in eb3 without his knowledge. He only came to know about this after 3 years after his labor got approved and got I-140 approved. The employer didn't provide him any papers for labor cert but somehow he got hold of his I-140 notice approval. He changed his job now and filed eb2 with new employer. I see no reason why he should not do interfile.
You are frustrated because of retrogression. Why don't you curse others, not those little less fortunate, from so called retrogressed countries? I have seen people in my organization coming from ROW countries and getting complete GC in less than 15 months. You should really get frustrated with country quota, not with your fellow sufferers.
think before you act like a fool. Say honestly that you never tried any legally available shortcut in your life.
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BlueSunD
03-07 12:08 AM
I guess it is kind of hard to try to complete an image that satisfies the mental picture that we have of it. Mostly, because of time, right now I have a lot to do too. But I won�t quit no matter what.... I guess that, either I love too much to work on 3D, or I like to suffer and don�t sleep :krazy: Anyway, good luck to everyone!
Geez Grinch! That�s really cool! I hadn�t reloaded this page until I posted... and I didn�t want to double post :)
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Geez Grinch! That�s really cool! I hadn�t reloaded this page until I posted... and I didn�t want to double post :)
Anyway, it�s really neat! Congratulations, the texturing is really nice!
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pappu
07-24 10:56 AM
I will try to dig out the actual memo. But this is from the oh law firm page:
---
06/17/2007: Flexible RFE/NOID Response Time Rule and Advisory for July EB-485 Filing
* As we advised earlier, the USCIS published a new rule that allows the USCIS to have more discredtion and control over the two issues: One is shortening of the timeframe for responses to RFE from previous 12 weeks to any period of time which they see fit. The second rule is their authority to either reject or deny petitions or applications without issuing RFE where "initial evidence" is missing in the filing. Previously, the so-called Yates memo indirectly required the agency to avoid rejection and denial with a recommend to issue RFEs as much as possible. This part of the Yates memo is overridden by the new rule who took effect yesterday, June 16, 2007. It is thus likely that the Service Centers will more aggressively reject or deny the I-485 applications where the "initial evidence" are missing in the filing packet. It is thus very important that people understand the definition of "initial evidence." The initial evidence varies between the nonimmigrant and immigrant proceedings and for that matter, each type of proceedings. The immigration regulation lists in details the initial evidence. However, the instructions sheets to each petition or application lists the initial evidence that are required for filing. Accordingly, beginning from today, people may want to read the instruction sheet for I-485 form carefully to learn the list of initial evidence and not to miss omitting these evidence in filing I-485 applications.
* One of the initial evidence which is listed is the sealed I-693, the Medical Examination results completed and sealed by the USCIS designated civil surgeons who examined the applicants per the immigration rules. As we reported yesterday, attorneys asked the USCIS authorities to accept I-485 applications without the medical result, but their answer was that they were taking it under advicement but as it stands now, the sealed medical report would be required as initial evidence, accoring to the USCIS authorities who were present at the AILA Annual Conference in Orlando. We understand that in some areas, there are a huge backlog in the physician's clinics for such medical examination. However, people can shop around the authorized physicians in much broader areas. For instance, people usually were asked to schedule such medical examination in the local "district" office where the applicants resided. The definition of "district office" has been broaden lately. Former district offices have been turned into field offices of a district office. Accordingly, people can schedule the medical examination through a physician located outside of their residence if the area falls under the jurisdiction of "district" even if it is outside the jurisdiction of "field office."
---
---
06/17/2007: Flexible RFE/NOID Response Time Rule and Advisory for July EB-485 Filing
* As we advised earlier, the USCIS published a new rule that allows the USCIS to have more discredtion and control over the two issues: One is shortening of the timeframe for responses to RFE from previous 12 weeks to any period of time which they see fit. The second rule is their authority to either reject or deny petitions or applications without issuing RFE where "initial evidence" is missing in the filing. Previously, the so-called Yates memo indirectly required the agency to avoid rejection and denial with a recommend to issue RFEs as much as possible. This part of the Yates memo is overridden by the new rule who took effect yesterday, June 16, 2007. It is thus likely that the Service Centers will more aggressively reject or deny the I-485 applications where the "initial evidence" are missing in the filing packet. It is thus very important that people understand the definition of "initial evidence." The initial evidence varies between the nonimmigrant and immigrant proceedings and for that matter, each type of proceedings. The immigration regulation lists in details the initial evidence. However, the instructions sheets to each petition or application lists the initial evidence that are required for filing. Accordingly, beginning from today, people may want to read the instruction sheet for I-485 form carefully to learn the list of initial evidence and not to miss omitting these evidence in filing I-485 applications.
* One of the initial evidence which is listed is the sealed I-693, the Medical Examination results completed and sealed by the USCIS designated civil surgeons who examined the applicants per the immigration rules. As we reported yesterday, attorneys asked the USCIS authorities to accept I-485 applications without the medical result, but their answer was that they were taking it under advicement but as it stands now, the sealed medical report would be required as initial evidence, accoring to the USCIS authorities who were present at the AILA Annual Conference in Orlando. We understand that in some areas, there are a huge backlog in the physician's clinics for such medical examination. However, people can shop around the authorized physicians in much broader areas. For instance, people usually were asked to schedule such medical examination in the local "district" office where the applicants resided. The definition of "district office" has been broaden lately. Former district offices have been turned into field offices of a district office. Accordingly, people can schedule the medical examination through a physician located outside of their residence if the area falls under the jurisdiction of "district" even if it is outside the jurisdiction of "field office."
---
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nitinboston
04-09 03:38 PM
same story every month, KLPD
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virald
07-18 11:30 AM
I think next time any one of us talks to USCIS, we should ask this question as to "Whether they have generated any rejection notices for apps received on July 2 2007 and have they mailed them".....my attorney says so far they have not received any rejection notices for apps filed on July 2 2007.
I guess it looks like we should wait at least a week before calling USCIS.
Make sure guys that between now and then, your attorney has not received the application (meaning it is still with USCIS).
I guess it looks like we should wait at least a week before calling USCIS.
Make sure guys that between now and then, your attorney has not received the application (meaning it is still with USCIS).
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chanduv23
09-10 03:59 PM
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DUNBAR
09-10 01:50 PM
EB3 India is in the year 2002. For the applicaiton process, the Perm certifications expire if there is no I-140 filed with a speculated amount of time, I think it is 90 days. For EB3 I with a 2010 priority date now, how does this system justify filing I-485 so many years down the line, when the PERM certification itself was validated so many years back. This process just doesn't make any sense.
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Legal
07-13 10:35 AM
#67 Today, 09:28 AM
alterego
Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 460
Keep in mind two things. Many, quite possibly most of the July VB fiasco filed 485s have not been processed yet, Eb2 or EB3 India. There have been more recently (in the past couple of months) but still not most.
When a few IV members predicted the rapid movment of EB2 -I, they were dismissed as naive, and fantasizing. Yet, here we are with the EB-2-I PD current for June 2006. Lately, I'm having more faith in the philosophical statement -"The truth is unknowable". :) and having less and less faith on the speculations/ predictions of most IV members.
Are you sure about your above statement? My interpretation is since the processing date for 485s at the Nebraska service center is July 27th 2007, all the 485S received before that date have been processed, and are waiting only for visa number assignment.
I would like to fantasize next fee weeks my assumption is correct:). My PD is EB2-I feb 2006, RD July 2nd 2007.
alterego
Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 460
Keep in mind two things. Many, quite possibly most of the July VB fiasco filed 485s have not been processed yet, Eb2 or EB3 India. There have been more recently (in the past couple of months) but still not most.
When a few IV members predicted the rapid movment of EB2 -I, they were dismissed as naive, and fantasizing. Yet, here we are with the EB-2-I PD current for June 2006. Lately, I'm having more faith in the philosophical statement -"The truth is unknowable". :) and having less and less faith on the speculations/ predictions of most IV members.
Are you sure about your above statement? My interpretation is since the processing date for 485s at the Nebraska service center is July 27th 2007, all the 485S received before that date have been processed, and are waiting only for visa number assignment.
I would like to fantasize next fee weeks my assumption is correct:). My PD is EB2-I feb 2006, RD July 2nd 2007.
more...
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pmb76
03-18 06:47 PM
Now for the rest of this year the EB2 queues for China and India are merged. Visa allocations will be solely based on Priority date. So for example if India has many priority dates that are before China's, India may end up getting more visa allocations. The same holds true if China has earlier priority dates than India does. That's how I inderstood it and I thought I would try to explain it to some who did not. Otherwise sorry for stating the obvious.
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geniousatwork
06-11 08:50 AM
done....me and my wife did it
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nk2006
10-17 12:12 PM
Fax number (816) 350-5785
Will do (downloaded the letter - will send after notarizing it).
Thanks
Will do (downloaded the letter - will send after notarizing it).
Thanks
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ezee
10-16 05:45 PM
I clearly mentioned each of the following country and category. To make sure, I also mentioned that we do not need combined total of pending AOS applications. If the request is ambiguous or means different things to different people,please let us know and we can make needed modifications asap. Are you recommending to hand out a blank tabular format .to USCIS FOIA?
I personally think there is a possible ambiguity in the request (especially since we are dealing with a government agency). So we should probably bullet point the data we need at least and if people don't think there is any harm in putting in a table for the format of data needed that will make things very clear. I agree with you that breakdown of quarter/month is probably not needed and might actually hurt our chances of getting the answer within reasonable amount of time.
I personally think there is a possible ambiguity in the request (especially since we are dealing with a government agency). So we should probably bullet point the data we need at least and if people don't think there is any harm in putting in a table for the format of data needed that will make things very clear. I agree with you that breakdown of quarter/month is probably not needed and might actually hurt our chances of getting the answer within reasonable amount of time.
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nc14
10-19 11:03 AM
Sent mine on Saturday.
Keep this going folks we need to help ourselves.
http://www.uscis.gov/files/nativedocuments/cbo_30sept08.pdf
11.
Question: We have a number of date availability questions. They are:
a.
What is the demographic makeup of those in the current backlog? Can we get data on their nationality?
Response: No, demographic data is not currently available and would require a special Information Technology Service Request (ITSR) be drafted and submitted to the Office of Information Technology www.uscis.gov
(OIT). The administrative burden on USCIS to pursue an ITSR solution and add an additional workload on the O&M contractor cannot be justified given the level of effort involved.
Keep this going folks we need to help ourselves.
http://www.uscis.gov/files/nativedocuments/cbo_30sept08.pdf
11.
Question: We have a number of date availability questions. They are:
a.
What is the demographic makeup of those in the current backlog? Can we get data on their nationality?
Response: No, demographic data is not currently available and would require a special Information Technology Service Request (ITSR) be drafted and submitted to the Office of Information Technology www.uscis.gov
(OIT). The administrative burden on USCIS to pursue an ITSR solution and add an additional workload on the O&M contractor cannot be justified given the level of effort involved.
oliTwist
12-10 08:06 PM
stop crying, our real problem is unfair country quota & retrogression. Help IV fight for our common goals.
I can't help but think about this story after reading your post.
A fox, upon failing to find a way to reach grapes hanging high up on a vine, retreated and said: "The grapes are sour anyway!" The moral is stated as "It is easy to despise what you cannot get". ;)
But I think we all agree to the point htat HydGuy is making..
I can't help but think about this story after reading your post.
A fox, upon failing to find a way to reach grapes hanging high up on a vine, retreated and said: "The grapes are sour anyway!" The moral is stated as "It is easy to despise what you cannot get". ;)
But I think we all agree to the point htat HydGuy is making..
sureshj
06-08 02:18 PM
To solve the FBI name check problem, the following suggestions should be communicated to lawmaker if possible:
1. Increase the fundings for FBI name check. The major reason of name check delay is due to lack of resources for manual name check.
2. Introduce a conditional Green Card. Conditional green card is equivalent to green card, except with condition that it could be taken back IF AND ONLY IF the name check eventually fails to pass. Person with conditional green card enjoy all the benefits with normal green card, including transfering job freely, re-enter US freely, count years to citizenship, etc.
3. People wants to file 485 can ask FBI do name check before they actaully file 485 with a certain amount of filing fee. So that the delay for FBI name check will not impact 485 processing too much.
I could'nt agree with gcdreamer more...
Consider this...
1. FBI, I believe, has 2 rookie analysts dedicated to processing name checks and I heard USCIS pays $25 per name check.
2. FBI has distributed databases in NY, CA, FL, etc. that are not networked. So they have to request name checks individually out of these databases.
3. Name check ranks least in their priority list.
4. FBI has increased their name check criteria from 2 (First name and Last Name) to, I think it is, 7 or 8 (part of the first name, part of the last name and few other combinations). This increases the chances of your name generating "hits" and falling into this blackhole.
In addition to the above FBI (which normally receives ~1.5m name check requests per year) received ~6m in 2003. They are still recovering from that deluge. So now you see what's causing the delay.
For USCIS this works out fine, since they rake in 15% of their annual revenue from EAD/AP renewals. They do not want to mess with this "free money" and reduce the processing time. And to top it all they can transfer the blame on FBI.
In addition, to secure this "money train" USCIS cleverly issued a public memo earlier this year indicating WOM cases will be fought in court. To most this would have seemed like the end of WOM, but it is not. Applicants have since filed and won these cases. However the memo probably had its' desired effect...to discourage a majority of the applicants from filing WOM.
I think USCIS has to be made accountable for the money they earn. The $25/name check is just not sufficient. More funding is necessary so that FBI can allocate more analysts to the job and also upgrade their IT infrastructure. Excuses such as "ball is in FBI's court" is just not acceptable. "Conditional Green card" (as suggested by gcdreamer) is excellant idea to alleviate the problems the "name check" victims face over the ~2 to 4 years they spend in this blackhole.
PS: Just in case you are not aware of Senator Obama's initiative to address this problem here is a link where you can sign-up for whatever it is worth.
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?nc082505&1
1. Increase the fundings for FBI name check. The major reason of name check delay is due to lack of resources for manual name check.
2. Introduce a conditional Green Card. Conditional green card is equivalent to green card, except with condition that it could be taken back IF AND ONLY IF the name check eventually fails to pass. Person with conditional green card enjoy all the benefits with normal green card, including transfering job freely, re-enter US freely, count years to citizenship, etc.
3. People wants to file 485 can ask FBI do name check before they actaully file 485 with a certain amount of filing fee. So that the delay for FBI name check will not impact 485 processing too much.
I could'nt agree with gcdreamer more...
Consider this...
1. FBI, I believe, has 2 rookie analysts dedicated to processing name checks and I heard USCIS pays $25 per name check.
2. FBI has distributed databases in NY, CA, FL, etc. that are not networked. So they have to request name checks individually out of these databases.
3. Name check ranks least in their priority list.
4. FBI has increased their name check criteria from 2 (First name and Last Name) to, I think it is, 7 or 8 (part of the first name, part of the last name and few other combinations). This increases the chances of your name generating "hits" and falling into this blackhole.
In addition to the above FBI (which normally receives ~1.5m name check requests per year) received ~6m in 2003. They are still recovering from that deluge. So now you see what's causing the delay.
For USCIS this works out fine, since they rake in 15% of their annual revenue from EAD/AP renewals. They do not want to mess with this "free money" and reduce the processing time. And to top it all they can transfer the blame on FBI.
In addition, to secure this "money train" USCIS cleverly issued a public memo earlier this year indicating WOM cases will be fought in court. To most this would have seemed like the end of WOM, but it is not. Applicants have since filed and won these cases. However the memo probably had its' desired effect...to discourage a majority of the applicants from filing WOM.
I think USCIS has to be made accountable for the money they earn. The $25/name check is just not sufficient. More funding is necessary so that FBI can allocate more analysts to the job and also upgrade their IT infrastructure. Excuses such as "ball is in FBI's court" is just not acceptable. "Conditional Green card" (as suggested by gcdreamer) is excellant idea to alleviate the problems the "name check" victims face over the ~2 to 4 years they spend in this blackhole.
PS: Just in case you are not aware of Senator Obama's initiative to address this problem here is a link where you can sign-up for whatever it is worth.
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?nc082505&1